A podcast about the book Mythical Monsters and Extinct Animals can be accessed above. This episode was part of several podcasts generated with Google NotebookLM and is the product of AI.
Find the original book at Project Gutenberg.
Charles Gould’s Mythical Monsters examines the possibility that many creatures of myth were real animals, inaccurately described through time. Gould supports this by citing examples of historical figures whose accurate observations were initially dismissed, and by referencing the discovery of fossils of enormous extinct reptiles and other animals. He also explores how cultural and environmental factors influence the transmission of myths and considers the impact of geological and climatic changes on the extinction of species. Furthermore, the text reviews evidence for the existence of the unicorn and the sea serpent, presenting various historical accounts and scientific perspectives on their reality. Finally, the book’s appendices provide additional information on dragons and the deluge, drawing upon various sources, both historical and mythological, to support the author’s main thesis.
[Joe]
Welcome to our deep dive and today we’re going to be cracking open a really fascinating book. It’s called Mythical Monsters and Extinct Animals and it was written by Charles Gould. And we’re going to be taking a look and see if these creatures, these legendary creatures that we hear about in myths, if there might be some truth, some basis in reality behind these creatures.
[Tammy]
Absolutely.
[Joe]
You know, I think it’s so interesting that we take it for granted now that dinosaurs actually walked the earth.
[Tammy]
Right.
[Joe]
But just imagine going back a century or two.
[Tammy]
Yeah.
[Joe]
And trying to convince people that these giant reptilian creatures roamed the earth.
[Tammy]
Right.
[Joe]
Gould actually mentions this.
[Tammy]
Yeah.
[Joe]
In the introduction to his book.
[Tammy]
He does.
[Joe]
And he points out that even serious scientists back then before Darwin came along.
[Tammy]
Oh yeah.
[Joe]
Had some pretty wild ideas about the natural world.
[Tammy]
Yeah. The landscape of scientific thought was vastly different back then. Gould really highlights this shift in perspective.
You know, back in the day discussing mythical creatures seriously would have been career suicide. But with the advent of Darwinism and a newfound appreciation for folklore, people started looking at these stories through a new lens.
[Joe]
So we’re talking about a time when like believing in mermaids as an actual part of science.
[Tammy]
Exactly.
[Joe]
Wasn’t out there.
[Tammy]
Gould uses some really compelling real world examples.
[Joe]
Okay.
[Tammy]
To illustrate this point. Remember Marco Polo?
[Joe]
Of course.
[Tammy]
His accounts of his travels to the east were initially mocked.
[Joe]
Right.
[Tammy]
And dismissed as pure fantasy. And now they’re accepted as historical fact.
[Joe]
It’s like that fake news phenomenon we see today. Where sometimes what’s dismissed as outlandish turns out to be true. Right.
And vice versa.
[Tammy]
Absolutely.
[Joe]
So how does that apply to these mythical creatures?
[Tammy]
Well, Gould argues that just like those travelogues, many of these myths might have originated from real encounters.
[Joe]
Okay.
[Tammy]
But they were twisted and exaggerated through retelling over generations. He reminds us that for prehistoric humans, oral tradition was everything.
[Joe]
Wow.
[Tammy]
You know, knowledge including encounters with say a massive unfamiliar creature.
[Joe]
Okay.
[Tammy]
Was passed down through stories.
[Joe]
Right. So it’s like a giant game of telephone, but on a time scale of centuries.
[Tammy]
Exactly.
[Joe]
Wow. And we all know how much a story can change going through just a few people. So imagine stretching that across generations.
[Tammy]
Right.
[Joe]
Okay. So if we’re entertaining the idea that some of these myths can be rooted in reality, where do we even begin?
[Tammy]
Well, Gould dives into some compelling evidence. Starting with dinosaurs.
[Joe]
Okay.
[Tammy]
We know they existed. Right. And their sheer size and power dwarfed even the most fantastical monsters in myth.
[Joe]
Okay. But dinosaurs are accepted science now.
[Tammy]
Mm-hmm.
[Joe]
How does that connect to?
[Tammy]
Well, Gould describes these recent discoveries of dinosaur bones in Colorado.
[Joe]
Okay.
[Tammy]
And these things were absolute titans. They make even the most imaginative mythical monsters seem small. Right.
He delves into specific dinosaur groups, like the Stegosaurus.
[Joe]
Uh-huh.
[Tammy]
Imagine a creature 30 feet long.
[Joe]
Wow.
[Tammy]
Covered in bony plates and spines bunching on leaves.
[Joe]
A 30-foot Stegosaurus. That’s not just big. That’s mind-boggling.
[Tammy]
Mind-boggling.
[Joe]
But you mentioned recent discoveries.
[Tammy]
Yeah.
[Joe]
Weren’t dinosaurs millions of years ago?
[Tammy]
Yes. But geologically speaking, these creatures roamed the earth relatively recently. And that brings us to a crucial point that Gould emphasizes.
Okay. Extinction. Right.
We tend to think of extinction as something that happened a long time ago. Yeah. But it’s an ongoing process.
Even creatures as mighty as dinosaurs weren’t immune. And neither are many animals today.
[Joe]
It’s almost like a reality check. You know, these awe-inspiring creatures. Even giants like the dinosaurs could vanish.
What other examples does Gould give?
[Tammy]
He lists a whole bunch.
[Joe]
Okay.
[Tammy]
Both recent and ongoing.
[Joe]
Uh-huh.
[Tammy]
The Steller’s sea cow, for example.
[Joe]
Okay.
[Tammy]
Was hunted to extinction within just a few decades of its discovery. Wow. The Tasmanian tiger is another tragic example.
And sadly, elephant populations in Africa are facing a similar threat today.
[Joe]
It’s sobering to think that even the most dominant creatures aren’t invincible. But if humans were around to witness the extinction of some of these animals.
[Tammy]
Yeah.
[Joe]
Wouldn’t that support the idea that they might have inspired some of these myths?
[Tammy]
Exactly. And Gould points to archaeological evidence that these encounters between humans and quote-unquote monsters.
[Joe]
Okay.
[Tammy]
Weren’t just fantasy.
[Joe]
Right.
[Tammy]
He describes discoveries of human remains found alongside those of extinct creatures. Proving that they coexisted.
[Joe]
So we’re talking about direct interaction, not just separate existence. Are there any particularly striking examples of this?
[Tammy]
One that really stands out is the Grotto of Arignac in France.
[Joe]
Okay.
[Tammy]
Researchers found evidence of paleolithic humans feasting on a young woolly rhinoceros.
[Joe]
Wow. A woolly rhino barbecue. Talk about a story to tell around the campfire.
It really paints a picture of early humans interacting with these creatures. Not just as mythical figures, but as part of their everyday lives. Which makes you wonder, what other pieces of the puzzle are we missing?
[Tammy]
Well, to add another layer of complexity, Gould reminds us that the Earth itself has been in constant flux.
[Joe]
Okay.
[Tammy]
He delves into glacial periods, shifting land masses.
[Joe]
Wait, shifting land masses? Yeah. You mean like the continents moving?
[Tammy]
Yes. Plate tectonics.
[Joe]
Okay.
[Tammy]
It’s the theory that the Earth’s outer layer is made up of these massive plates that are constantly shifting and colliding.
[Joe]
Okay, now my mind is blown.
[Tammy]
It’s fascinating stuff.
[Joe]
So we’ve got these ancient humans potentially encountering fantastic creatures in a world that’s constantly changing. What does that mean for our understanding of myths?
[Tammy]
If we connect this to the bigger picture, it means that our current understanding of the past could be just a glimpse of a much grander, more complex story.
[Joe]
Wow.
[Tammy]
Who knows what other secrets lie buried beneath the surface waiting to be uncovered?
[Joe]
It really makes you wonder what we might find next. All these incredible creatures and a planet in constant flux.
[Tammy]
Right.
[Joe]
It’s like a giant puzzle and we’ve only just started putting the pieces together.
[Tammy]
Yeah.
[Joe]
Speaking of mysteries, there’s one mythical creature that Gould really dives deep into. The sea serpent.
[Tammy]
Ah, yes. Sea serpent.
[Joe]
What do you think about that one?
[Tammy]
Well, it’s a recurring figure in mythology across cultures.
[Joe]
Right.
[Tammy]
And Gould dedicates a significant portion of his book to examining the evidence.
[Joe]
Yeah.
[Tammy]
And it’s fascinating stuff.
[Joe]
So sea serpent stories, I mean, they always send chills down my spine.
[Tammy]
Yeah.
[Joe]
What kind of evidence are we talking about here?
[Tammy]
Well, Gould has compiled a vast collection of firsthand accounts.
[Joe]
Okay.
[Tammy]
From sailors, explorers, even scientists.
[Joe]
Hold on. Scientists reporting sea serpents.
[Tammy]
Oh, yeah.
[Joe]
That’s intriguing.
[Tammy]
Yeah. And we’re not talking about just vague rumors or campfire tales.
[Joe]
Okay.
[Tammy]
These are detailed reports.
[Joe]
Okay.
[Tammy]
With specific descriptions, sketches, even measurements.
[Joe]
Wow. So scientists were actually taking this seriously enough to put pen to paper.
[Tammy]
Absolutely.
[Joe]
Wow. What kind of details do they record?
[Tammy]
There’s a surprising amount of consistency across these reports.
[Joe]
Okay.
[Tammy]
Some describe a creature with a horse-like mane.
[Joe]
Okay.
[Tammy]
Others, a long serpentine body with flippers.
[Joe]
Uh-huh.
[Tammy]
There are even accounts of bioluminescence. Like a glowing, almost ethereal quality.
[Joe]
That’s both beautiful and terrifying.
[Tammy]
It is.
[Joe]
But, you know, some skeptics say that these are just misidentified whales or seaweed.
[Tammy]
Right.
[Joe]
How does Gould address that?
[Tammy]
Well, he acknowledges that possibility.
[Joe]
Yeah.
[Tammy]
But he also points out that many of these accounts come from experienced seamen.
[Joe]
Right.
[Tammy]
People who spent their lives on the water and knew how to identify marine life.
[Joe]
Yeah. Good point. It’s hard to imagine a seasoned sailor mistaking a whale for a giant glowing serpent.
[Tammy]
Exactly.
[Joe]
So are there any accounts that like stand out to you?
[Tammy]
Well, there are accounts of the sea serpent interacting with other creatures like whales. Gould even includes a description from a ship called the Royal Saxon, where the creature was said to have been longer than the ship itself.
[Joe]
Okay. That’s a detail that’s hard to explain away as just like a big fish.
[Tammy]
Exactly.
[Joe]
What kind of explanations does Gould offer?
[Tammy]
Well, he explores various possibilities always with a scientific lens.
[Joe]
Okay.
[Tammy]
Could it be a giant squid?
[Joe]
Okay.
[Tammy]
A type of long neck seal? He even considers the possibility of a surviving plesiosaur.
[Joe]
A plesiosaur.
[Tammy]
A prehistoric marine reptile.
[Joe]
Wow. That would rewrite the history books.
[Tammy]
It would indeed. But Gould doesn’t just speculate.
[Joe]
Okay.
[Tammy]
He examines the anatomical possibilities. Right. Comparing descriptions of the creature to known species.
Right. He even references this Burmese text that describes this giant predatory worm-like creature called the Nayan. That inhabits estuaries and attacks large animals, including elephants.
[Joe]
Whoa. A giant worm that attacks elephants. Now that’s a monster movie waiting to happen.
[Tammy]
It does sound terrifying, doesn’t it? And it underscores how these mythical creatures often blur the lines between our understanding of the natural world and the realm of the unknown.
[Joe]
So after all this evidence, what’s Gould’s conclusion? Does he believe that the sea serpent is real?
[Tammy]
He doesn’t offer a definitive answer. Instead, he challenges us to remain open to the possibility.
[Joe]
Okay.
[Tammy]
He reminds us that our understanding of the natural world is constantly evolving. What we dismiss as myth today might become scientific fact tomorrow.
[Joe]
I like that staying open to the mystery.
[Tammy]
Right.
[Joe]
It’s like he’s saying, don’t be so quick to dismiss the unknown.
[Tammy]
Exactly. After all, we’re still discovering new species all the time.
[Joe]
Right.
[Tammy]
And the ocean in particular remains largely unexplored.
[Joe]
That’s true.
[Tammy]
Who knows what incredible creatures might be lurking in its depths?
[Joe]
It’s almost humbling, isn’t it, to think about how much we still don’t know about our own planet.
[Tammy]
It is.
[Joe]
But, you know, going back to Gould’s point about our understanding evolving.
[Tammy]
Uh-huh.
[Joe]
Haven’t there been creatures that were once thought to be purely mythical?
[Tammy]
Oh, yeah.
[Joe]
That turned out to be real?
[Tammy]
Absolutely. The Okapi, for example.
[Joe]
The Okapi?
[Tammy]
Was once dismissed as this fantastical beast. It’s like a zebra crossed with a giraffe.
[Joe]
Wow.
[Tammy]
And early explorers’ descriptions of it were met with disbelief.
[Joe]
Uh-oh.
[Tammy]
But guess what? It turned out to be a real animal.
[Joe]
Wow.
[Tammy]
Living in the dense rainforests of Central Africa.
[Joe]
It’s like the world is playing hide and seek with us constantly revealing new wonders.
[Tammy]
It is.
[Joe]
You know, I remember reading about the giant squid, too.
[Tammy]
Oh, yeah.
[Joe]
That was considered a sailor’s tall tale for centuries.
[Tammy]
Right.
[Joe]
And then, boom, there’s actual evidence.
[Tammy]
Exactly. And even the gorilla, which seems so familiar to us now, was once relegated to the realm of myth. Early reports from explorers were dismissed as mere stories until they were finally documented scientifically.
[Joe]
So it really underscores how our perceptions of what’s real can change dramatically over time.
[Tammy]
Absolutely.
[Joe]
Which makes you wonder if some of the creatures we scoff at today might actually have some basis in reality. Maybe future generations will look back at our skepticism and chuckle just like we do with those who doubted Marco Polo.
[Tammy]
Exactly. And that brings us back to the heart of Gould’s argument.
[Joe]
OK.
[Tammy]
He’s not just trying to prove or disprove the existence of specific monsters. Right. He’s challenging us to reconsider our assumptions about the natural world.
And to appreciate the power of these ancient stories.
[Joe]
It’s like he’s saying, don’t dismiss these myths as mere fantasy. There might be more to them than meets the eye.
[Tammy]
Precisely, Gould reminds us that the Earth has undergone dramatic transformations over millennia. Continents have shifted, climates have fluctuated, and entire species have vanished without a trace.
[Joe]
Right.
[Tammy]
So it’s not unreasonable to think that some of these mythical creatures might have existed in a world vastly different from our own.
[Joe]
It’s almost like we’re trying to piece together this giant puzzle. But we only have a handful of the pieces.
[Tammy]
Yeah.
[Joe]
You know, we can see glimpses of something incredible. But we’re still missing crucial parts of the picture.
[Tammy]
And that’s perhaps the most exciting part of it all.
[Joe]
Yeah.
[Tammy]
It leaves us with this sense of wonder and possibility.
[Joe]
Yeah. If some of these mythical creatures were based on reality, what other fantastical beings might have once existed?
[Tammy]
Right.
[Joe]
What discoveries might yet rewrite our understanding of the past?
[Tammy]
It’s a challenge to keep exploring, to delve deeper into the mysteries of the natural world, and to never stop questioning the boundaries of what we think we know.
[Joe]
Absolutely.
[Tammy]
So the next time you hear a myth or a legend, don’t just dismiss it. Take a moment to consider, what if there’s a grain of truth hidden within those ancient tales? Who knows what incredible creatures might be lurking just beyond the edge of our current understanding waiting to be discovered?
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